This interview originally aired on July 17th, 2025.
Gregory Scharpen: [00:00:00] This is W. Kamau Bell here for you on KALX, Arts in Review.
[Music]
Particularly I wanted to talk to you about was that since you did that run of the Berkeley Rep, which was the benefit for Zaccho and Oakland Theater Project and all those various things. It’s nice to see a solidarity already being built up among artists. But it also makes me feel like, oh, we’re going back to bake sales to have to try and something [laughter].
But I think maybe just starting with that week that you did at the Berkeley Rep, talk about A: how it went and B: the thought process behind it and your feelings about the place we’re in right now.
W. Kamau Bell: You know, I still am, but I started as a standup comedian, which is really separate from theater [laughter]. It’s not really, it’s not a, whether it’s an –
Gregory Scharpen: It’s a little crossover in the Venn diagram.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Whether it’s an art form or not, we can debate that. But, uh, but it’s certainly people who are standup comics, pure and simple, don’t really spend much time in the theater and people who are pure theater people don’t spend much time seeing comedy.
Gregory Scharpen: Rarely go to Cobb’s.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. It’s like these [00:01:00] are, I prefer performing in theaters, but I do recognize that really the birth of modern stand up comedy is Lenny Bruce in a strip club. [laughter] Playing to the band. He’s not playing to the patrons, he’s playing to the band behind him.
But my career specifically didn’t start to take off until I stepped outta the clubs and started going to like little independent black box theaters in San Francisco. The Shelton Theater being the really, the key one that really, I think that’s when I started to become a part of the theater community in San Francisco, so I did The Bell Curve. That’s where I developed the W. Kamau Bell Curve: Ending Racism in About an Hour. That theater also previously is where I met my wife. So it’s like, it’s an important marker in the Kamau Bell life experience. And then when I got the itch do stand up comedy again, I was looking for venues to sort of develop my act at.
And then I was like, what about the Berkeley Rep? And at the time I was thinking these giant, I was like, I don’t want really want to play in these giant theaters, but I’m gonna reach out to them. And they’re like, we have this theater called The Bakery, which is 60 seats, which is primarily for teaching and because it’s primarily for teaching, we have Saturday nights available in The Bakery. And you go, wait, [00:02:00] you have that? You are giving me Saturday. That’s like the night you have to fight for. And you’re saying you can’t do it on Tuesday, you have to do it on Saturday night. Okay. I just felt like really embraced by the Berkeley Rep community and the stage managers were used to running way more complicated things than my thing was, like, we’re happy to help and it just was a joyful experience, you know? And so that got my act back together and I started going on the road and my first date was at the Kennedy Center the day after Trump took it over.
Gregory Scharpen: Oh lord. I’d forgotten that. Oh my.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. So, you know, I got a lot of thoughts about this government. And then when I saw the, I heard the NEA thing, and then I read somewhere that the Berkeley Rep had lost funding. I just immediately emailed Johanna at the Berkeley Rep, was like, Hey, if there’s anything I can do other than write a big check, ’cause I don’t have big check money. Not all celebrity’s accounts, bank accounts aren’t created equally, but is there anything you let me know.
And I didn’t know what that would be, just if there’s anything I can do. And then a couple days later she’s like, we have a couple weeks open, couple dark weeks. Do you wanna take one of those dark weeks? And I had just been there, I did a proper run in the [00:03:00] Peet’s Theater. In January.
Yeah. And so it hadn’t been that long, so I shouldn’t have really come back that soon. But I was like, well, it’s a benefit. And I was like, maybe we’ll figure out a way to make it special, or maybe I’ll call some of my famous friends, you know, who knows what’s happening. So I said, yeah, let’s do it.
And you know, ultimately at the end, some Bay Area notables came by to talk to the crowd. We had Lateefah Simon come through one night and my friend Pastor Michael McBride spoke a couple nights. My mom opened a bunch of the shows, my kid did the shows with me, you know. And when we realized, when Johanna also was the one who said, we can’t just be raising money for the Berkeley Rep, we had to be raising money for Bay Area theaters across the board who lost NEA funding. So she did the legwork of finding out which theaters it was, it was her idea. Then my wife was like, you know, dance also needs help. And so that’s how we got Zaccho in there. Yeah. She’d worked with Zaccho years ago and Dance Mission also was another theater that I’d been to with Melissa. ’cause I’ve been to a lot of dancing so. And again, I wanna give Berkeley Rep, they’re a giant repertory theater. They could just be like, we want it for ourselves. But they were like, they understand the [00:04:00] theater community symbiosis relationship.
The funny thing was, for me, it was the easiest thing in the world. It was a lot of fun. Like I did feel the moment of like, we did address what was going on. The audience felt really – you could tell that people were there to raise the money. They were like, we get a show, but we are invested in what we’re here to do.
And then I always feel like in those positions, and I gotta give you some homework to leave outta here with, so let’s talk about things to do in the world.
Gregory Scharpen: Absolutely.
W. Kamau Bell: Because guess what? This isn’t it. “Yay, we defeated fascism!”
Gregory Scharpen: “Kamau Bell did a weekend. We’re done.”
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish, like my show Ending Racism in About an Hour that wasn’t it either. But, it was just very clear to me what the moment was.
And it felt really like, this is what we should be doing in the Bay. And I’m glad to be a, maybe I’m the spark of it, but I’m glad to be in the middle of it. Yeah.
Gregory Scharpen: Well, I was gonna hold off on the, “What can we do about it” till the end of the conversation, but since you brought it up, I think we might as well dive into that.
Because you’re somebody who is a very astute student of history and society and, what have [00:05:00] been your thoughts in that regard?
W. Kamau Bell: It’s funny, recently I’m like, I was describing, I have a Substack, which is also called “Who’s With Me?” like my current standup show. And I was trying to describe it, what is my Substack about?
It’s classified in the humor section, which is fine ’cause I’m a comedian. And I do want it to be funny, but I was like, I write about…America. [laughter] Like, I just think it’s like the best way to put it. Like just America and whatever America touches. So like it’s really just, I think a student of America is probably how I really think is the most like, and whatever, sometimes that’s history. Sometimes that’s current events, sometimes that’s, you know, nonsense. Sometimes that’s imperialism.
Gregory Scharpen: It’s frequently nonsense.
W. Kamau Bell: It’s frequently nonsense. Sometimes it’s, you know,
Gregory Scharpen: Sometimes amusing nonsense or not amusing nonsense.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just like it’s America. And sometimes it is in other countries and it’s, you know, so, um. So, I’m sorry, what was the question?
Gregory Scharpen: Oh, okay. Just the idea of, we’ve found ourselves in this space. What are the things that people just can individually do? Is there something beyond, you know, just call your congressman, keep the pressure up and-
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I mean, I think first of all, I would just say at a, on a very basic level, get to know all of your neighbors. [00:06:00] Just all of ’em. All of them. Not just the ones who live next door. ’cause you have to know ’em. ’cause your ball goes over the fence or their ball goes over your fence, right? Not just the ones who brought you the casserole when you moved in.
Really start in your community. Make sure that your community knows everybody and feels comfortable knocking on everybody’s door because sometime the [bleep] might hit the fan and I said, I wouldn’t swear, but it might hit the fan. And you might need to knock on that person’s door just because they’re, you know, or they may need to knock on your door.
Let your neighbors know that you’re a friendly presence. More than just a sign that says, we believe in all science…
Gregory Scharpen: And everyone’s equal, and blah, blah, blah.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, that’s great. That’s actually not bad. But I think it’s actually like, believe me, I’ve lived in neighborhoods where I’ve seen the sign that says, Black Lives Matter. I’m like, well, at least we got that going for us, but I don’t know that person, you know? I’m still like, do I knock on their door? So I think on a very basic level, get to know your neighbors. Get to know the people you work with from the top to- don’t just say hello to the guy who cleans, say “Hi, what are…” find out who people are around you. The better you know the people in and around your community, the better community member [00:07:00] you can be and the more open your community members can be to reaching out to you if they need you. You know, it’s like the Mr. Rogers like, look for the helpers.
Gregory Scharpen: Look for the helpers.
W. Kamau Bell: Let people know that you are a helper. And so, for me, that’s the big thing is like, and that, that’s not about writing a check, but it might be about, going to get your neighbor groceries. ’cause they’re afraid to leave the house. For whatever reasons. For whatever reasons.
Gregory Scharpen: Mm-hmm.
W. Kamau Bell: I would say. Whatever your level of interest is, Google that in your area code. So if you’re worried about ICE, then Google immigrant rights groups in your neighborhood or in your area and figure out and just call them. Like just, just email them. Is there anything I can do? They may say no.
They’re probably gonna say yes. And it’s probably, a lot of times it’s not a range.
Gregory Scharpen: That’s what they’re there for.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And they’re not gonna, and it maybe they would take your check, but it’s ’cause be like, here, come here and stuff some envelopes come here and canvas, come here and…
Gregory Scharpen: Put up some flyers around…
W. Kamau Bell: Put up some flyers.
Gregory Scharpen: Here’s the phone number, like if you have seen this, call this number.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And again, it’s about letting that those groups know that you’re a friendly, that you’re somebody who’s like, I’m here in the community and I care about this. So, you gotta start, and if the last thing you wanna do is not [00:08:00] start nowhere, you gotta start somewhere.
And if you’re, I always think it’s like working out. If your thing is writing checks and you wrote a check this year for $50. Then try to write a check for $51 next year. You know what I mean? Try to push, and I’m not saying that everybody’s gonna write checks, but you have to, I think, if your thing is like, I’m gonna call the immigrants rights organization and I’m gonna wait for them to call me, well then go by, then go.
And the more you learn, the more you should also raise your level of commitment to whatever it is you’re doing. And even at the Berkeley Rep, I had a pre-show slideshow. That at first was just about like, oh, it’d be fun to have pictures and show some things in my family, and then I did the No Kings rally in Dublin and they talked about how Dublin is talking about building an ICE detention center for their old abandoned prison that was shut down ’cause of sexual assault. Too much sexual assault in the prison of women. They shut it down. Now they’re talking about turning to an ICE detention center.
And a friend of mine, who our kids go to school together was like, “It’s the smallest No Kings rally. Will you come and speak at this? But it’s the only one with a direct ask.” And I was like, sure. Just ’cause I know this person. And she’s known me for years. [00:09:00] And then I did the shows at the Berkeley Rep and I was like, wait a minute, the QR code that they gave me for that thing I can put in the pre-show slideshow and tell people: while you’re sitting here waiting for this thing to start, go sign this petition and feel a little bit better about yourself. You know? So I find that I have to try to use every opportunity that I can to make sure that I’m not just going, “Look at me.”
And I’m in a look at me business. So I would say for everybody else, just try to take more opportunities in your day to find opportunities to help. I mean, and it can literally be as small as like, I guess say picking up trash. Don’t pass the trash on the street. You know what I mean? Like just, just pick it up just to keep it moving.
You know? You gotta tell nobody, you don’t need an award, but like, look for more opportunities. And if you can’t see them, then ask around for more opportunities. And you know, I think people get caught up in feeling like, if they’re not starting a nonprofit to save the world, that they’re not doing enough.
Or if they’re not writing a $2 billion check, they’re not doing enough. And it’s like most of the change that happens is from somewhat small individual acts adding up, [00:10:00] you know.
Gregory Scharpen: I did a long running project on the global anti-apartheid movement a few years back, and one of the things that’s been coming back to me a lot lately is when the United Democratic front formed in South Africa in the mid eighties and the rallying cry it was.
Organize where you are. Are you a football club? Do things around football. Are you a nursery school? Do things around that. Are you a kitchen? Do things around that. And so the idea that you are already situated where you can do something. You don’t need to go somewhere to do it.
You’re already there.
W. Kamau Bell: You’re already there. Yeah. No, me and my friend, Kate Schatz wrote this book, Do the Work!, During the last racism attack in America two, three years ago. And it was about like, people say, stay in your lane. And we’re like, yeah, stay in your lane and know what your lane is and do things in your lane.
Like where you are at, where you work and where you live, and who you hang out with. There are plenty of opportunities to do something. People feel like, “I gotta go to a, a rally that I’ve never, and I never go to rallies and I…” maybe you gotta go to a rally, but maybe you just gotta, like, if your neighbor just says, I am so exhausted from running my family, I need a casserole.
Then make a [00:11:00] casserole. Like it doesn’t all have to be destroying fascism. Just being a good member of your community.
Gregory Scharpen: Although destroying fascism one casserole at a time is a really kind of nice-
W. Kamau Bell: That is a seductive idea [laughter]. I like – that is not – we’re onto something and you know, it’s like hands across America, casseroles across America. [Laughter]
Yeah, no, I think it’s just necessary to be involved and to be as actively involved as you can be. And everybody has a different level of what that means. I mean, I did shows in Portland and Seattle recently and some woman said she saw me do a video on Instagram where I just told people, it’s on you.
Like ending fascism is on you. You. The person listening to this, it’s on you. I know. You’re like, “It’s not me.” No, it’s on you. It’s like, I was like, I hate to tell you this, but in the movie about what’s happening right now, you’re the main character and you’re like, but I’m not ready. And I’m like, none of the main characters were ready.
Gregory Scharpen: No one ever is.
W. Kamau Bell: Neo wasn’t ready. Luke Skywalker wasn’t ready. Uh, Shuri from the Black Panther 2 wasn’t ready. Jesus Christ wasn’t ready. Nobody was ready. Nobody was ready. None of the fictional characters were ready. And she said, so I went to a [00:12:00] protest, and she’s like, and I was afraid, and of course every, 99% of protests are the most fun, loving, relaxed experiences.
And she’s like, I was surprised. And people were like, are you new to a protest? Come here, you know-
Gregory Scharpen: Here, have a cookie. Have a have a bottle of water.
W. Kamau Bell: Exactly. Take care of yourself. Make sure you stay hydrated. Like protests are not what you see from the 1960’s Civil Rights footage. Not all the time. Occasionally, but. And this woman that I didn’t know just because I was like, I feel like people need to hear that it’s on them.
Gregory Scharpen: We’d mentioned the Kennedy Center, and I do want to circle back around to that ’cause I actually had forgotten that you were – the timing of that.
But just talk a little bit about, there’s a artist named Dewey Crumpler who you may or may not know, who used to work at the Art Institute, who talks about art as being a powerful instrument. It’s why power uses it. It’s the first thing they use. And it’s the first thing they attack.
W. Kamau Bell: Mm-hmm.
Gregory Scharpen: And the takeover of the Kennedy Center was just another one of those. Oh my God. This is. If we scripted this, it would be absurd.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. It sounds very like, Mel Brooks-y and, yeah.
Gregory Scharpen: But just talk about being there, especially that day and kind of the, [00:13:00] just that experience.
W. Kamau Bell: I mean, it’s funny how long that I didn’t know – first of all, we booked that in October when Kamala Harris was, “She’s gonna be the next”, you know? And initially I was booked for inauguration weekend, I think because the Kennedy Center thought, oh, Kamau can be here. All the Kamala fans will be in town. It’ll be be fun. They can all come to the Kennedy Center and that’s not, and so we moved it once we realized Trump had won, ’cause they were like, this probably is not a good weekend for you to come to town.
And I was like, thank you. My wife appreciates this. And so we moved it to a random day and that random day ended up being the first day that, he like announced he was taking over the day before my date, so I was the first person to perform there after he – in the big room – after he had announced he was taking over. And I was literally about to step on the plane when I got a text from the Kennedy Center that was like, “Call us right away if you can.”
And I was like, I’m about to get on the plane to come to the Kennedy Center, you know, can you talk to my, I had him talk to my publicist, who’s a good friend of mine. I was like, you can tell her whatever you wanna tell her. She’ll, that’s fine. And so then she emailed me on the plane and was like, yeah, he’s officially taking it over.[00:14:00]
They just, a lot of artists are starting to cancel now. They hear about it, they just wanna know what you wanna do since your show’s tomorrow. And I really had to be like. I mean, I’m already headed there. And they’re like, look, 1500 tickets have been sold. Nobody’s calling for their money back. It’s not like you’re gonna perform, and we understand if you want to cancel, but, and somebody told me, but we kind of feel like if you do it, you’re maybe the best comic we can have. There’s a small group of comics we’d want in that position. You know, no offense to, you know, Carrot Top, but like who can speak to the moment.
And I sort of was like, no part of me was like, I want to cancel. But there’s also this part as being a black person in America, is it a bad look if I don’t cancel? Does it make me look like I’m bowing down to him if I do the show, but I’m not going to bow down to him on stage. You know, I’m gonna be clear about what I believe when I say, and then this thing came out where Trump said, “I had to take it over ’cause it gotten too woke-y”. And I was like, oh, I’m doing the show.
Oh, you thought it was woke-y before? It was too woke-y? Wait till I get there. So my joke was like the W stands for Woke-y Kamau Bell. And [00:15:00] so I was just very clear – and my opener is a friend of mine named Dwayne Kennedy, who’s also a black guy – and he stepped on stage even before I got on stage, and said, “Welcome to the last time you’ll see two black guys at the Kennedy Center.”
And the crowd just went, boom! It was like, We needed that. Because we’re all, whatever you think the Kennedy Center is when you’re not there, it’s just, the best funded community center in the country. ’cause it’s in DC and it’s just a place where DC residents who are bright blue and very inclusive and LGBTQ friendly and super progressive and want all the things that we want in the Bay Area, they just have the shadow of the White House looming over them.
And sometimes that shadow is good and sometimes it’s not. And so it’s never great ’cause no taxation without representation.
Gregory Scharpen: 51st State.
W. Kamau Bell: 51st State, yeah. They should be the – Puerto Rico does not wanna be the 51st state, just so people know. But DC should be. It’s bigger than Wyoming, but as far as population.
So I really felt like I paid tribute to the people who work there too. ’cause I’m like, there are people who work here who don’t know if they’re gonna have jobs and, you know, we say thank you for your service for military people, but I just wanna thank these people for their service.
And you know, I just really felt like, [00:16:00] this is what the job is. And I stand in the giant footsteps of comedians like Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Dick Gregory, you know, hell, Wanda Sykes, Margaret Cho. People who are like, who speak truth to power and aren’t afraid of what hap- or, even if they’re afraid they do it anyway.
So I’m like, this is, the tradition I walk in. So if I’m gonna be here, I’m gonna do it the way that I would do it. Like, I’m not going to, I’m not gonna shy away. And then after the show, people were like, thank you. This is my, I used to come here all the time. I know this is my last time until he’s outta here.
So this was their last time to sort of mourn their relationship with the Kennedy Center being over for maybe ever. Who knows? And so I really –
Gregory Scharpen: A woke wake.
W. Kamau Bell: A woke wake [laughter]. A woke-y wake, a wake-y woke. And then, but then all the press came out and suddenly people were like, and then random people on Instagram were like, what do you perform for Trump?
I didn’t perform for Trump. And you just go, at the end of the day, do I feel good about what I did? And I ended up reading about Sweet Honey in the Rock performing in North Carolina. When they had the anti-trans bathroom bills and a lot of performers canceled and they went and did their [00:17:00] show and they said, we went there ’cause our community was there and needed us.
And I was like, that’s what I, I was doing that. Like I was doing the, there are still people there who want to hear from me. I want to go there for them you know, so I honor all performers who canceled. I get it. It’s different being a standup comedian than being like a fiddle player.
Like, you know. You don’t have the same-
Gregory Scharpen: If you’re in the symphony or if you know – if the script of Les Mis is already set, then yes.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. I get Hamilton canceling. ’cause that seems too like, yeah, this is actually about, not this. But as a standup comedian, I felt like I have the position to do it the way I wanna do it and make it clear.
And then I actually met Sweet Honey in the Rock at Nikki Giovanni’s memorial. And I got to tell them the story, and the woman who founded it said, you gotta do what feels good for you. And I almost started crying. Like it was just like, this woman has been through way more than I’ve been through. Who am I to be like, oh, I was so scared to perform at the Kennedy Center. You know?
So, yeah. So, we have to figure out who we are in this moment. We have to figure it out, and we have to give ourself grace. ’cause it’s not always easy to figure out who you are. But the assignment is clear: defeat fascism.
Gregory Scharpen: One of the other things I wanted to talk to you [00:18:00] about, is that I’ve been – this has actually been the case for a number of years now – but, I kind of think of comedians and comics as being, in a weird way, the best political analysis that this country have. You know, John Oliver is where I learn a hell of a lot of things.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, John Oliver’s doing investigative comedic journalism. I had a friend who worked in that show. He’s like, it’s like working on the news. Like they don’t want the jokes first. They want the angle, they want the facts first.
Gregory Scharpen: Which is interesting ’cause I think it was like a New Yorker interview that he did where he was, John Oliver was kind of, sort of bristling and looked really uncomfortable about being called journalism. And I understand.
W. Kamau Bell: I understand. I get it. I get it. ’cause if you’re a journalist, it takes your power of being a comedian away. Yeah. You can’t make, you can’t tell a fart joke, as a journalist.
Gregory Scharpen: But, and it’s also, you know, I think he feels it sort of devalues the actual investigative journalism that the journalistic analysis is then built on.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. But he’s using journalism to do comedy journalism.
Gregory Scharpen: Right. And yet I still think of it as a form of journalism and as a form of, you know, this is how you can absorb the news, find out the small, the [00:19:00] little bits and pieces. And I don’t know if it was always this or if that’s a fairly recent phenomenon, but I think, and I think you’re definitely part of that with things like, you know, the United Shades of America, where it’s couched as comedy, but it is really social analysis, social critique, looking into these issues.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean, so two things. One: yes, there are great comedians who are able to, have focused their comedic lens on spreading knowledge or opening doors or, killing misinformation or lies. Yes. That is the small percentage of comedians so I just wanna be clear, I think sometimes we say comedians are the best journal – like whatever comedians –
Gregory Scharpen: They’re the last bastion of a free society [laughter]!
W. Kamau Bell: No, that handful of comedians that we have mentioned might be that. But it is not the vast majority of comedians.
And you know, I don’t have to go too far before I say Joe Rogan, you know what I mean? So like, or even somebody like Dave Chappelle, where it’s like 70% of it I feel that way about, and then [00:20:00] there’s a bunch of it. I’m like, no, not that part.
Gregory Scharpen: Why did you say that?
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Not that. Yeah. So I think, which is why comedians, I don’t think Dave Chappelle would want journalism anywhere near him.
But I think that, I get why John Oliver and John Stewart are like, I’m just a comedian because, I’m not trying to be held up to the standards of traditional journalism ’cause that means I can’t be funny. But I think we have to understand that journalism has evolved. If Fox News can have the word “news” in its title, journalism has changed.
So I think we all would say that a half hour of John Oliver has more news and information in it than a 24 hour Fox News period. And I feel the same way. I always tell people my operating system is as a comedian, but I’m a comedian doing all these other things. So I think the comedian lens helps because you really are trying to get to the point. When you’re a comedian, you’re like, what’s the punchline?
But it’s also, what’s the point? What am I trying to tell you? So a good comedian isn’t just gonna ramble, you know, they’re gonna be like, they’re gonna get you there. And also, I think the thing John Oliver’s done is he’s pointing you towards the actual source. So he’s like, he’s not saying I think this, he’s like, if you go to this website and you talk to this person, and we interview this –
Gregory Scharpen: Here’s this newscast from 1982.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen he’s [00:21:00] used clips of United Shades on that show, and I’m like, well, look, it’s like Inception [laughter].
Gregory Scharpen: The mirror turned back around.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. So it’s like, I think he’s not – whereas on Fox News, they just have these talking heads, say just, yammer. And there’s no proof of anything that’s being said. And they’re using the same clip of one block of San Francisco to talk about, “San Francisco is a nightmare.”
Gregory Scharpen: Or here’s the Waymo that’s on fire in Los Angeles. From multiple different angles. But it’s the same Waymo.
W. Kamau Bell: Same Waymo. Yeah.
So let’s not act like comedians are smarter than regular people. And the title of my Substack are “Comedians are (Stupid) People, Too”. So, we can talk about John Oliver, Wanda Sykes, you know, all these other people I named, like, you know, John Stewart.
Gregory Scharpen: Amber Ruffin.
W. Kamau Bell: Amber Ruffin. Yeah. We can talk about Roy Wood Jr., Trevor Noah, Sam Seder, who’s on The Majority Report. Who was a comedian.
Gregory Scharpen: That’s right, he was a comedian. Yeah.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Mark Maron. We can talk about all these people. But don’t act like, ’cause the New York Times is recently, ” Is Andrew Schulz America’s foremost political journalist?” Question mark. Do you know Andrew Schulz?
Gregory Scharpen: I’m not familiar with him.
W. Kamau Bell: Well, exactly ’cause he’s [00:22:00] not. [laughter] Because-
Gregory Scharpen: The shortest article they’ve written: “No”.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah, no. It’s like they did an hour long interview with this guy who’s a – he’s a manosphere, or they call the Rogansphere, like the comics under Joe Rogan. He’s a Joe Rogan acolyte, who’s a popular comedian and tells funny jokes. But he interviewed Trump and they wanna say that makes him an investigative journalist?
‘Cause he played footsies with Trump is what he did. But because he’s popular and the New York Times wants to be popular, they sit him down and they put a question mark. So we’re not saying he’s the most prominent,
Gregory Scharpen: We’re just asking questions!
W. Kamau Bell: We’re just asking – maybe he isn’t, we’re not saying he is. But we did say it in the title and we understand how rhetoric works. So now we’re saying that’s an idea worth discussing. When it’s a thousand percent not. It’s a thousand percent not worth discussing. But if that’s journalism, then it has no meaning.
Gregory Scharpen: Which in this day and age actually might, is increasingly becoming the case, I fear.
W. Kamau Bell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean I think the best journalism is happening on social media and YouTube. People who are like, Sam Seder’s a YouTube guy. I think it’s happening with people who are like, I’m trying to make a living doing this, but this is my avocation and vocation.
It [00:23:00] is not a thing I’m doing ’cause I have a square jaw.
Gregory Scharpen: Well, Seder’s interesting because I mean he often will be joking around, but then when you get into the interviews, they’re talking about policy. It’s like, this guy knows his stuff. He’s amazingly well
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. He’ll get into some social security stuff and you’re like, oh, you’re not just saying it. You actually know what you’re talking – you’re quoting chapter and verse.
Gregory Scharpen: You did the research on this.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. And you do it enough that you can do it without looking at notes like, “No, in 1997…” Yeah. So I think being funny and having a comedic mind is pretty much an asset to any job you have, if you are funny and have a comedic mind.
So it makes sense to me that many comedians who don’t make it as comedians can find success in other areas, ’cause if you have a facile comedic mind, it will help you in anything you do. Every public speaker wants to open with a joke. And also it helps you analyze things and get to the meat quicker.
But I don’t think that means everybody who has that ability is using it for good. It’s, you know, it’s like saying everybody with superpowers is a superhero. That’s not how the universe works.
Gregory Scharpen: There need to be some villains in order to make the drama work.
W. Kamau Bell: Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, it’s not how- just because you can run faster and [00:24:00] stronger doesn’t mean you’re doing it for the forces of good. So I think that’s why I get really right now, especially as they like – I mean, there’s all these manosphere comedians, Rogansphere comedians who are like, who are basically aiding and abetting fascism through the lens of like, “I’m just asking questions.”
And it’s like, no, you’ve picked a side. You just want to act like you haven’t because it doesn’t pay as much to actually pick a side.
Gregory Scharpen: And you’re hedging your bets so that you can avoid litigation perhaps.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And I’m here to, and I’m here to like, to file charges against you [laughter].
I’m here as the people, as the comedies lawyer to go, no, you’re not actually doing this. You’re actually, you’ve actually chosen a side, and I’m gonna tell you’re on that side, so you know you’re on that side. Yeah.
Gregory Scharpen: Maybe just, round back around to calls to action in a way, one of the things we talked about was, “Do I go to a rally”? Why do I want, no, I’m afraid of going to a rally and I’ve gone to – the recent one I went to was the No Kings rally. And I think the cynical part of my mind wonders is do these things actually do anything –
W. Kamau Bell: Turn that part off.
Gregory Scharpen: And I was realizing when I was there. Being around people, even if you’re quote, [00:25:00] preaching to the choir, unquote, in the air quotes. Like, oh, that’s right. I’m not alone in this. There are other people here who feel the same way and the kind of revivification of your own conscience or your own energy levels. The fact that, these things are ways to sort of bolster each other up. I found like, oh – this is why. I mean, there’s probably other reasons, but in this moment, this is why I’m here to sort of like fortify myself.
W. Kamau Bell: Yeah. I think we have maybe gotten to the point of like, I went to the rally, why aren’t things better? And it’s like, well then you don’t understand how things work, if that’s…
But on top of that, I think of it like this. You may be somebody who’s like, I’ve been to a thousand rallies. This is just 1,001. It’s not as exciting as it used to be. I’m getting cynical about it. There’s somebody out – there’s many people out there who are white belts at the rally where it’s their first time and they’ve never seen one before and they’re blown away and they can’t figure it out.
And the thing that is great now that it didn’t used to happen, a rallies, there are QR codes everywhere [laughter] so they can join different [00:26:00] organizations and stay in touch. There’s actually, the rallies I’ve been to recently are making it very clear, look around, there are QR codes, so that we can actually capture these people and keep them involved.
But I think the idea, it’s like going to a martial arts school. You may be a grizzled eighth degree black belt who’s like, ah, another practice, but somebody in there, that’s their first day. And I would say in that regard, your job is to find those white belts and make sure that they come back to the class the next day.
So I think when people get like, what’s a rally gonna do? It’s like: what are you gonna do? And when you go to that rally, like what, why are you making it on everybody else again, it’s on you to go to that rally and to see somebody like, this woman I saw who said she’s this, you know, 65-year-old white lady who looks like a soccer mom and is sort looking around and somebody’s like, Hey, come here. Let me help you here. Here’s some water. Here’s a sign that, which funny sign do you want? Do you wanna march with us? And that builds community. So I think your job as the grizzled eighth degree black belt is to go there and help the white belts out.
Gregory Scharpen: I think that is an absolutely perfect note to end on.
We have been talking with W. Kamau Bell. I’d like to thank you so, so much for being [00:27:00] here today.
W. Kamau Bell: Thanks for having me.
