Wendy Todd: [00:00:00] You are listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM University and Listener Supported Radio, and this is Berkeley Brainwaves, a show that airs every other Tuesday morning from 9 to 9:30 Bringing you stories from the Cal community. I’m your host, Wendy Todd, and today I am excited to talk to two extraordinary people who are working to ensure people who qualify for relief from the criminal justice system actually receive the relief they’re entitled to by law.
I’m joined by Professor Colleen Chien, and she is the co-director of the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology. Um, Professor Chien, I know there you have done amazing work with the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology. You’re a teacher, a researcher, an expert in the field of intellectual property, AI innovation, and you’ve been named one of Silicon Valley’s Women of Influence among many other wards, [00:01:00] and you founded the Prison Papers Initiative.
There’s a lot to say about your accomplishments, but I’d love for you to introduce yourself and let our listeners know who you are and why you’re doing what you do.
Professor Chien: I started out, you know, I had an engineering degree and um, I was kind of heading towards doing work in, you know, sort of, I worked at NASA and I was sort of looking at that area.
Um, but the nice thing was, uh, in, when I finally went to law school, I was able to combine both a technical background and law to be able to affect social change. And so I think that’s what’s been really wonderful, um, in the area that I’ve been working in, is to try to think about how do we take all these powerful tools that when learning about in sort of the.
Technology world and the world of AI, for example, which is an area I teach in, and then apply it to the pro the problems that we think are most pressing. Um, and so for me, I think it actually started when I was working, um. I kind of become more aware of politics, uh, around the presidential elections as we sort of all know about.
And I realized that if I wanted to get [00:02:00] involved in really structural change, I needed to work, uh, not only sort of innovation in innovation, which was my main area, uh, but also get more involved in, um, the criminal justice system and the kind of structural, uh, inequalities in our society. And so I was able to sort of take the engineering.
And data science sort of areas that I had worked in before and apply that to the law and to criminal justice. And that’s what led to the birth of the Paper Prisons initiative.
Wendy Todd: Hmm. So trying to use technology innovation for social benefit sounds like.
Professor Chien: Yeah, I mean, it all came together honestly during a talk I was at, where I was sitting in the audience and I was at my law school already teaching at that point.
And Van Jones came into the audience to the, to the, to the room. And he made a statement very casually like, uh, there are people in prison because of a math problem. And I couldn’t believe sort of what I’d heard. And he said it very casually and he said, well, yeah, there are, uh, when people are. Basically sentenced, many times they don’t serve the full sentence [00:03:00] because they’re given good time credits and in the administration of the system there had been the calculation of good time at 15% rather than 50 per 50% good time. And so to me, this kind of separation of these two worlds of sort of technology and innovation on the one hand, and then sort of the social, uh, welfare, you know, system and administration of the criminal justice system, um, they, they were so separate that there was, that this could happen.
It really shocked me. And so, um, I founded the Paper Prisons initiative to try to bring. Data and automation, the tools of innovation to the kind of most pressing social problems that I can, I could imagine and can, could, uh, perceive.
Wendy Todd: Great. So tell us more about the Paper Prisons initiative.
Professor Chien: We are a group of lawyers, data scientists, social scientists, um, and uh, researchers in general that are working to address this gap between eligibility and delivery of relief from the criminal justice system.
And for me, again, this started [00:04:00] also in my personal life when I was. As, as a mom, you know, taking my kid to school and there was a person at the school who was in the afterschool program. He was great with the kids. And then one day he wasn’t there anymore. Uh, and what I found out is that he had been accused of, um, he was a queer Black man.
He was, had been accused of, um, sexual assault. After a night out, he was never convicted of that crime, um, that he was accused of. He was exonerated, but just the accusation itself was enough to take him out of teaching and basically out of his chosen profession. And I could not really kind of shake the idea that so many people are, um, taken away from their areas of uh, the gifts they have or the kind of professions they wanna choose, the volunteering that they wanna do by having either an accusation or a conviction on their records. Um, and so I started to do empirical research on this and I found that this was not an isolated issue. Again, in his situation, there were some challenges with a law at the time, but it was gonna be very hard for him to get an expungement.
He didn’t [00:05:00] have the resources or the wherewithal at the time to, um, take care of that record. Again, there were some legal cha challenges with actually doing that, that have. Now it changed. The law has changed. Um, but again, I saw this over and over also as a professor, where I saw students who were excellent, who were sort of had a lot of good momentum to graduate and be very successful in their careers, but had, you know, old records or things that popped up for them that really um, completely waylaid their plans. And so, um, you know, as a professor, as a mentor, I’ve seen a lot of students and I’ve seen this happen to too many people. And it made me realize that, again, in the research there was this, this kind of validation of this big gap between eligibility for, um, getting expungement and actually getting it.
Um, and so. That’s what caused me to write this paper called America’s Paper Prisons: The Second Chance Gap, about this gap between, um, eligibility and delivery. And it was just one paper, but I think because there were other people whose lived experiences also really, [00:06:00] uh, validated the idea of this -there was not really sort of this concept before.
Um, I was able to be in conversation and then ultimately work very closely with, uh, the Clean Slate Initiative, which works to pass laws to actually automate uh, and deliver expungements without a person having to file a petition by themselves.
Wendy Todd: So there is a law that, that needs more attention or research around how well it’s being followed or implemented?
Professor Chien: Well, in the year that I started working with the Clean Slate Initiative and I wrote the paper, I think there was maybe one or two states that had started to do Clean Slate. Um, and then in the subsequent years we partnered as researchers with states that were working to evaluate laws, to just tell them, well, what is the gap?
What is the uptake of this expungement remedy that you have on the books? Uh, and in many cases it was less than 10% and that research was used as evidence and testimony to pass laws. And now there are 13 laws that have been passed, uh, including in California. There have been a few laws. Um, so that’s been [00:07:00] very gratifying to see the research, um, be part of this much bigger movement.
Wendy Todd: Wow. And what is next with this movement? Are there states that are considering the sort of Second Chance Act and Law?
Professor Chien: Uh, so what’s, I think what we’re working on right now is. And what I think is so great about the research with respect to what Clean Slate is focused on is because it’s an impacted led organization.
They don’t really care just about passing laws either. A lot of folks will be super happy if they publish a paper or others might be happy if they pass a law. But this movement is really about changing lives and ensuring that people have a better outcome. There is research that shows that people who file for Expungements experience a 25% increase in their income, which is very substantial.
And, uh, we don’t really know what the impact of automated expungement is yet. There have been a few studies on it, but no one’s really looked at when. Uh, [00:08:00] when exp automated expungement is implemented, well, how might that end up changing lives? And so now I’m involved in a new phase of research, which I’m calling Digital Juneteenth, in which we are now partnered with the Public Defender’s Office of Santa Clara County to, now that California has passed a few laws, to actually let people know about their expungements because if they don’t know about them, then they can’t sort of have the mental shift, have the actual mechanical change of having a clean record and pursue better opportunities, better paying jobs, education, housing, et cetera. And so that’s something we’ve been involved in. Now we’ve just started a small pilot and we’re now expanding to be able to try to notify as many of the over a hundred thousand people who have received relief just in that one county.
Wendy Todd: Just in Santa Clara County.
Professor Chien: Just in Santa Clara County.
Wendy Todd: Wow. I, it, it’s fascinating to me and heartbreaking that there’s so many people that don’t know that they could have their record sealed. Right. Maybe [00:09:00] talk more about what does expungement mean exactly. And how it is that some people know that they’re eligible and some people don’t.
Professor Chien: Yeah. It’s really a confusing process. So the sort of basic information is that one in three American adults, close to 80 million, unique individuals has a criminal record, so you know people, we’ve all encountered them, even if we don’t know the information, there are just a lot of people. There’s a lot of people at Berkeley with criminal records and criminal histories, but the law says that after a certain period of time of desistance from any criminal activity, you can get your record cleared.
Now, prior to these Clean Slate laws being passed, you had to go through a petition process, which was cumbersome. You had to know about them. You had to get a lawyer, um, and often pay thousands of dollars to get that clearance done. What these new laws do is automatically clear people of their records after a certain period of time, depending on whether it’s a misdemeanor or a felony, what type of crime is involved.
And so what that [00:10:00] means is, um, at the state level, in the repository, your record will be sealed for most purposes except for certain, um, jobs that you apply for that involve state licenses. There will still be access to records. Police and law enforcement can seal it, still see the records, but for most folks, when you’re applying for a job, they will not be able to see that expunged record.
The issue is that California has dozens of counties, and so each county also has its own independent record system, and so it is on the counties themselves to implement those same expungements. When the laws were passed, they were not allocated financial resources to do that. So it’s been a little slower than probably a lot of people would like.
But in Santa Clara County we’ve been, I used to teach at Santa Clara and we’ve, um, been working with the Public Defender for some time. And the, uh, the DA and the judges should be given a lot of credit for doing these clearances. So now there are a lot of people that are [00:11:00] being cleared. Every month new people fall into clearance, so as a continuous process, um, and those people are getting their records to be, um, cleared and allow them then to apply for jobs, serve on juries, you know, get certain types of housing, uh, and basically have a lot of barriers removed.
Wendy Todd: Wow. Congratulations on making that big step happen in Santa Clara County.
Professor Chien: Oh, we’re excited to be working with folks on this notification. Yeah, it’s a lot of credit to the, the public defender. Uh, the DA and the, the judges there.
Wendy Todd: That’s great. If you’re just joining us, welcome to Berkeley Brainwaves on KALX, A show that brings you stories from the Cal community. Today we’re talking with Professor Colleen Chien, co-director of the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology, and we’re talking about working on making sure that people who qualify for relief from the criminal justice system actually receive the relief that they are entitled to by law.
[00:12:00] Um, so specifically we’re talking about the Paper Prisons initiative, and I’m curious about what’s, um, other successes that you’ve experienced with this work that you’re doing?
Professor Chien: Well, I think for me there’s clearly, um. The work that we’re, the external impact that we’re trying to have in terms of doing research that can help policy makers make decisions that in terms of what laws get passed, but then also how they’re implemented.
Uh, but on a personal level, I think for me, um, getting to understand the criminal justice system, getting to understand its devastating impacts on families and also some of the very hard decisions that courts need to make, uh, has been very humbling. And I think also, um, something. A set of experiences that I never knew about and had access to before I started working in this area.
So a central part of what I hope to bring through this project is just, uh, be a witness and to try to elevate the experiences of people that we are, um, studying and that we’re working with. Um, and so [00:13:00] a central part of our. Uh, our mission is also to use data research, but also empathy to try to just make better policy.
Uh, and so we have on our website, if you go to Paper Prisons.org/diary, we actually have the descriptions that people say about how expungement or having a record has impacted their lives. And I encourage anybody who’s listening to this, who’s interested to go to the website and just read some of those narratives.
Um, because I think for a lot of these people, they carry this history with them in a way where they’re able to navigate the world, they figured out other ways to get around, but the unjustness of carrying something that. Happened 20 years ago, that happened 15 years ago, that makes you unable to, for example, you know, adopt your sister’s children or to take a job working with troubled youth because you have those talents, should be the one that’s doing that job, but you cannot because you have that history to not be able to serve on a jury or do something that makes you want to contribute to [00:14:00] society. To me, it’s just a. A tremendous loss, uh, not only to the individual persons, but to society in general. People are not investing themselves.
They’re not taking care of their families in the way they want to be. They’re not being the role model that they can be, and we are holding people back. Artificially and for no reason. Um, we have also been a lot of involved a lot in the Racial Justice Act and we have narratives there too, of people that have talked about how the Racial Justice Act, what it signifies to them.
And I can happy to talk about that separately. But I think for me, um, what’s been important is to try to, as a human, just understand, you know, I’m a mom, when I see other mothers talk about their experiences for people that have been formerly incarcerated, my heart goes out and I, you know, I don’t understand why our system is doing that.
I think a lot of it’s neglect if people knew, um, and knew sort of what we are leaving on the table as a society, I don’t think things would be the way they are. Um, I [00:15:00] also think though, you know, the biggest pleasure of the job has been being able to work with generations of students, um, whether it’s Santa Clara, whether at Berkeley, whether undergrads or law students or data science students, who also, many of them have had not had exposure to the criminal justice system to see them kind of learn about it, to become more sensitized to the issues and to really find it purposeful. Right? What is, I think the most exciting thing about being in school is that you can try a lot of things. You can get exposed to a lot of things and you can find purpose in what you’re doing. And so I’m really hopeful that I. Any sort of exposure to the project people have had as students can be something that they can carry with them, um, as they move on and do other great things in the world.
Wendy Todd: So, uh, let’s take a break and if you’re just joining us, welcome to Berkeley Brainwaves on KALX, A show that brings you stories from the Cal community. Today we’re talking with Professor Colleen Chien and um, we’re gonna bring in a special guest, Mr. Alonzo Harvey, who [00:16:00] is a graduate. Of the Undergrad Scholars program and is now an expert advisor on the Paper Prisons Initiative.
Welcome Alonzo.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.
Wendy Todd: Thanks for being here. Um, you know, I just gave a little high level intro, but I’d love for you to introduce yourself and tell us why you’re doing the work you do.
Um, so I’m, I’m, I’m from San Diego. I’m formerly incarcerated, been to prison myself, um, and just kind of being empowered to, um, where I really appreciate Professor Chair for just bringing me on the team and the good work that she’s been doing, just to kind of empower people who are formerly incarcerated to let them know that, um, work is being done um, behind the scenes, right?
But also empowering people who are incarcerated, um, to let them know that, um, they’re not, they’re not alone. So just being incarcerated, just seeing the people of color disproportionately marginalized in there, really no real chance, no fair chance. Um, prison is just like a, a almost, almost like a, a it’s a setup, right? Mm-hmm. Like school to prison pipeline type of thing. [00:17:00] Um, and just seeing that how we’re underrepresented in there, everybody’s kind of having the same story, kind of the same upbringing, um, no real representation, um, in the courts. Um, that kind of just sparked me to kind of like change, um, not only myself, but kind of want to be the change, uh, for people who don’t really have that chance.
Um, there’s so many people. I have a best friend who’s doing life right now. Um, with enhancements, and that’s something else that kind of sparked my interest to seeing that, uh, people of color, 90% of the people of color are facing enhancements. And that’s just a stark, um, number that I kind of wanna, uh, attack.
And tell me what enhancements are.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: So, pretty much, so for example, if a person commits a crime, um, they have something like gang enhancements or, or, or, or, or, uh, gun enhancements, but it’s people, pretty much people of color. And if you commit a crime, they’re adding 10 years, five years, 20 years, two year sentence.
So if you’re like, um, somebody who’s already have had a record that’s an automatic 10 to 15 year [00:18:00] sentence on top of what you’re doing. So like my friend who he, he ended up getting like 35 years, but that’s all enhancement. He got a 10 year sentence on his charge. But because he’s been a convicted felon, he has so many other enhancements that now he’s doing enhancement time.
And that’s pretty much, I wanna say like 80 to 90% of people of color are doing enhancement time right now. Um, so yeah, and that’s what kind of just sparks me to kind of like get out and go to law school and be a lawyer, um, to kind of just be a representation in there and, and, and kind of not only tell my story, but show, um, the system that second chances are needed.
Um, it’s important, um, not only for families but to society. Um, and records show that. Statistics show that people that come home, um, are, are, are, come back to society and provide, um, not only for their families, but to, to, to the economy as well. So yeah, that’s just kind of, uh, a never ending fight that I feel like I’m gonna be in.
Um, but I know that it’s important as well.
Wendy Todd: Mm. And [00:19:00] what are you seeing with, um, paper Prison’s initiative? What are some bright lights that you’re seeing?
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Um, everything, everything about paper, prison is important I think. Um. For me, for example, just the, the second chance. Right. Um, and even, even small things like getting a job, right?
Like, um, getting your license. There’s, we’re also doing projects on like license, um, and, and folks that are, you know, that are able to get the records expunged. Like you said, the 25 percent in increase in, in wages. That’s super important. Mm-hmm. Right? That’s taking care of your kids, taking care of your family, but also taking care of yourself.
But also, I feel like I, I, I forgot what the quote was. It was Dr. Boyle and it was called Homie Up. It’s a nonprofit in LA where he says: “nothing stops a bullet, but like a job”, right? So like, I feel like most people who come home or people that are able to get adequate jobs, um. You, you’re able to provide and, and who, you know, any human being will want to provide for themselves and their families.
Right. Um, and I [00:20:00] think the only alternative of well, as we see is when a person is, is back, is against the wall and there’s no way to provide, I mean, you, you, you’re in survival mode and, and you’re willing to do whatever it takes to kind of survive. And I think, um. With Paper Prisons, we’re kind of showing that, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, there’s numbers behind it, and I’m not a numbers person. Mm-hmm. But I’m learning, working with paper prisons, that when you’re able to tell a story with behind the numbers, like I have experience, I’m able to show the numbers with my experience. I mean, that changes heads, right? Mm-hmm. That’s policy and.
Wendy Todd: And I don’t think people realize when you have a record, just how much it impacts your ability to thrive and, and get back to life. Right? Yeah. So even a, a driving a driver’s license.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Yeah. I mean, you, I’ve, I’ve tell a story. So I ended up, I, I went to jail two times in one week for driving without a license.
Um, I had, I was, I was pulled over at the age of 17. Um, I was written a ticket. When I turned 18, I had a warrant out for my arrest. Didn’t know driving [00:21:00] again for, for family. Um, my grandmother who has dementia, going to the store, just doing, just, you know, doing family stuff. And I was pulled over and actually taken to jail.
Um, because I had a warrant out for driving without license for something that happened when I was 17 years old. Um, and then that same week went to jail again. So come to find out, the officer wasn’t supposed to be on that beat, but he was the one that arrested me twice. But this is simply since, for not driving without license, but not realizing that that being incarcerated is just it just, you know, there’s it just like repeated cycle and from that point on it was kind of like hard to get out of. I was constantly being harassed and constantly being pulled over and just being, being tortured, being tormented, um, you know, heavy policed community. And, and, and it’s just kind of like we, we used to have this thing where we can’t three or more people can’t be in the car. Like, or if we do go somewhere, go simply going to school or going in the store, you have to duck in the backseat. Or sometimes we, we even have to put people in the trunk because it’s [00:22:00] like somebody, you know, we might be the only one having a car and it’s five friends.
It’s like, you might gotta get in the trunk today. Or like, we would like draw straws to see who’s gonna drive today now. It just, just real scary. You’re just real scary. And it’s simple of just not having a license and, um, not really realizing that that was the setup for the next. For the next thing. Right.
Wendy Todd: Right. It’s a domino effect.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Yeah. Dom effect. Domino effect. It was a domino effect. Yeah, domino effect. So just growing up in community, in my community, just heavily policed, um, you know, they, they, they, they consider that being crime, right? Mm-hmm. Anytime you go to jail, they consider you’re a criminal. So being, I was considered a criminal for going to jail without a license, and I used to just hear that my whole entire life.
Mm-hmm. You’re a criminal. You’re a criminal. You’re a criminal. So.
Wendy Todd: And it sounds like you were trying to work around things and, you know, protect yourself, uh, avoid the criminal justice system. Yeah. And now you’re actually working on changing the system itself.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Yes. Yes. Right.
Wendy Todd: You’re making an impact at a more.
Higher level, systemic level. So tell me about [00:23:00] your day to day. What’s the role that you’re playing now?
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Well, the Racial Injustice Act is super important. I mean, I think that’s important for people across the world, right? Because, um, I. Empirically speaking, right? We know people of color are disproportionately marginalized, right?
We know the numbers. But now that we’re able to bring statistics into the courtroom, um, it’s super important because not only can we, um, speak to the numbers, but we can actually show it, um, physically show it, right? Like I am the Racial Injustice Act. I’m gonna have friends who are the Racial Injustice Act.
Um, and I think that’s going to be, I don’t know, it’s a lot of work. Um, but it’s important work and it’s things are getting done. I mean, the needle is moving. Um, there have been some wins, small little wins, um, with people coming back to court. I have a friend who’s on his way back to court, um, with some Racial Justice Act.
Um. Things going on in his case. Um, I don’t know what that looks like as of right now, but the fact that we’re just able to bring statistics and compare ’em and, and show that, you know, people of color, [00:24:00] specifically black men are overly sentenced or, you know, sentenced to life or, you know, sentenced, can’t do diversion programs because you know, they’re addicts and it’s always being sent to prison and we’re able to show that.
Um, especially with this tool, how um, we could just pull it up, right? Like put something in there. And I know we’re gonna be having statistics, I mean, more data implemented, but, um, the fact that we’re just able to do that, I think that’s not, it’s more than just hope. Um,
Wendy Todd: Right.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: It’s really like, uh, it’s going to be.
It is gonna be, it’s gonna be a thing. I think the Racial Justice Act is gonna be something that’s gonna kind of like flip the justice system on its head. I’m so excited to be a part of that. So excited to be a part of the team, um, to give my expertise on um, what I feel should be implemented or what should.
Go in or, you know, things that we should be looking for.
Wendy Todd: Right.
Mr. Alonzo Henry: I mean, I’m just excited. I’m excited
Wendy Todd: There’s a real movement happening that you’re both a part of. Real movement. Yeah. So if people wanted to be involved, um, if they’re inspired by what you’re saying and um, [00:25:00] wanna learn more or wanna be involved.
Professor Chien, what’s your, your advice or your guidance?
Professor Chien: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the first thing is just to spend time looking at the diary and understanding what the experience is and getting a sense of what that, how that moves you. Because this is really hard work, as Alonzo alludes to, you know, sort of whether it’s the data or it’s trying to make the tool more friendly it’s hard work, um, and you have to. Understand why you wanna do it, to be part of it. But once you actually, um, do, I think, have a connection to it, whether it’s because your lived experience also, you know, somebody who might have been impacted or, um, you sort of see the patterns in the world and you wanna change them.
Then I think, you know, there are a lot of projects out there that you can work on and we’re always looking for folks that are genuinely interested to come and be part of the project so they can come email me or look at the Paper Prisons website. We have, you know, email contacts there that you can get, get involved in.
But I also just encourage you to check out the [00:26:00] Underground Scholars, as Alonzo just alluded to, I think one thing that’s been just awesome about being at Berkeley is that we have folks who have expertise. Alonzo is, um, you know, everyone’s favorite on the team. Uh, he brings so much energy and just so much insight.
Um, so many projects where we ask his, his first advice and he also kind of brings his other buddies in. We’ve had focus groups of people. They should be actually at the table. They should be making the decisions and so much of the research. Honestly also doesn’t involve enough, um, people who actually have expertise, who actually understand the cultural system, have seen what it does, and see how it operates and the very details that are very important in terms of how it actually is implemented.
You don’t see, you can’t understand that just by reading the law, you have to actually live in the system to interpret it correctly. So social scientists were not doing as good a job as we could be by not involving and you know, really growing the next generation of social scientists.
Wendy Todd: [00:27:00] Hmm. Alonzo, anything else you wanna add to anybody that wants to maybe get involved or the undergrads, um, scholars program?
Mr. Alonzo Henry: Um, just don’t be, well, my advice is just don’t be afraid. Um, your lived experience is the expertise. Um, and that’s just something that I know institutions don’t really, um, value. Um, but thanks for Professor Chien. She’s, um, not only. Encourages, um, folks like me, but has empowered, um, folks like me. We have a voice at the table.
Um, and that just does a lot, not only for me, but I’m able to go back and tell my friends what I’m doing. So they also encourage me. So just, you know, just come forward, you know, especially if your system impacted for me, incarcerated, come forward. Um, your expertise is needed. Um, we’re, we’re, we’re here to train folks who, who, who don’t have that, who aren’t impacted by the justice system.
Um, and, and there’s value. You have value, and I, I think it’s important to know that you have value and just come forward, you know, just come forward.
Professor Chien: Great. Yeah, I had also [00:28:00] mentioned to folks that might not, you know, be majors in political science or you know, sort of looking at criminal justice professionally.
If you’re interested in technology and innovation. That’s an area where we also are very much in need. Um, not only ourselves, but I think the justice system in general can benefit from a lot of these applications in a positive sense. We always hear about the negative uses of technology, um, but on the Paper Prisons team, because we’re working with.
The public defender to try to let people know about their expungement. We’re getting a very strong response so far in our initial pilot. We were really surprised at how many people were engaged and they wanted additional services. The public defender, it’s gonna be very difficult for them to scale that, so we’re actually working on developing an artificial intelligence.
Bot that can help people spiral up from where they are at, get them que answers to the questions that they have. And so I think there’s a lot of opportunities, there’s a lot of basic science in terms of thinking about how, um, the administration of social welfare benefits, how we can [00:29:00] safely develop bots that can provide support, um, can mimic our social welfare.
Um. Uh, services. We have a social welfare worker on our team who’s worked with people leaving the Carceral system, but also getting their expungements, and she’s amazing. Um, so whether, whatever area you’re working in, um, you have skills that are valuable and you can, you know, have a high impact with them.
Um, and so I think that’s something that’s very empowering about being in school, that you can know that your skills that you’re developing actually can make a difference immediately in somebody’s life.
Wendy Todd: Mm. It’s gonna take everybody, right? Yes. To support this movement, so we all have a role to play. Well, thank you so much for, for being here and taking the time to share about the Paper Prisons Initiative.
You’ve been listening to Berkeley Brainwaves on KALX 90.7. I want to thank. Professor Colleen Chan and Mr. Alonzo Harvey for taking the time to speak with us and more importantly for the important work [00:30:00] that they’re doing. This show will be archived as a podcast on the KALX website. That’s -K-A-L-X .berkeley.edu.
